Slavery; the root cause of Secession & War

[Johan Steele]

"Johan is not accusing anyone of racism."

Forgive me, Ole, but that is precisely what he's doing.

Bull; you and others have implied that blacks had no significance and have done so repeatedly I would almost say eagerly.  I have not called you racist though I readily admit that I believe your position to be inherently racist.  I do not believe the position of the US on such matters to be any better in that period.

As you have so eagerly stated that is the way it was; and that is true.  I don't really give a care whether you are racist or not as it has no bearing on the conversation.  Anyone who has bothered to actually study the era knows that the average white man of the period was not what one would call interested in racial equality.

It's quite possible to sympathize or defend the CS w/out being racist.  Any who claim I believe otherwise is a bald faced liar.

A defence of slavery is IMO about as despicable as one can get; but a defence of the CS is not always a defence of slavery.  Though all too often that is what is at the heart of it.  I haven't seen the typical drivel that slaves were somehow not ready or were incapable of understanding or appreciating freedom.

As to no one discounting the USCT... it was largely made up of southerners a fact that some choose to ignore.  Men who voted with the strength of their arms and more than a few w/ their very lives; do they somehow deserve less consideration that those who served the CS?

[Johan Steele]

http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civil-war-history-general-discussion/27108-southerners-service-us.html

You have questioned my numbers... here is a thread dedicated to the men of the South who fought for the US.

[Catherine Hopley]

Hi Borderruffian,

Civilwartalk is a toxic forum in which a handful of bullies hold sway and are allowed to do so because of spineless moderating.

"Bull; you and others have implied that blacks had no significance and have done so repeatedly I would almost say eagerly.  I have not called you racist though I readily admit that I believe your position to be inherently racist."

I don't know whether you are one of the "others" referred to above, but in any case I'd be interested to know whether you have noticed anyone implying that "blacks had no significance" during the course of this thread - except in the very narrow context of whether the legitimacy of the Confederate nation depended on black approval.

I suppose I ought to be angry about a slur like this, but life is too short and the writer's limitations are such that it would perhaps be unfair to hold him accountable.
 

[Johan Steele]

Hi Borderruffian,

Civilwartalk is a toxic forum in which a handful of bullies hold sway and are allowed to do so because of spineless moderating. I wouldn't call it spineless but a request for a "Hands off approach" where members are allowed to voice their opinions.  The bullies dare to demand legitimate sources... how dare they!  I guess that makes those who do so bullies.  When the mods do step in it is to stomp on flamers and even then such are given plenty of rope to hang themselves.  Censorship doesn't happen there despite what some of you like to claim.  Are you irritated because some members over there demand sources and legitimate sources at that?  A tad bit of bitterness from your stay there?  Or is it merely an attack because I'm a mod (with an opinion) over there?

I don't know whether you are one of the "others" referred to above, but in any case I'd be interested to know whether you have noticed anyone implying that "blacks had no significance" during the course of this thread - except in the very narrow context of whether the legitimacy of the Confederate nation depended on black approval. Lets see... the implication that all were forcibaly conscripted.  But then again that doesn't count does it so why does it matter?  Why does it matter that 186,000 men,a rather significant number, clearly chose which flag they felt was interested in freedom.   The CS needed the approval of its people, any people, and it couldn't even guarantee the approval of those it held in chains.  It speaks volumes to me.
I suppose I ought to be angry about a slur like this, but life is too short and the writer's limitations are such that it would perhaps be unfair to hold him accountable.  I do so love underhanded compliments... especially when they come from those claiming to be above such.  Merely more of what I have come to expect.  It is always merely a matter of time.  The names change, but the attitudes of some stay the same.
 

I must once again congratulate you upon your superb hijacking of a thread.  Slavery is forgotten, ignored or swept under the rug by your tactics; bravo, a job well done.  I applaud you.

Incidently, Missouri wasn't Southern?  Was it not considered so by the CS?  Did Missouri not contribute materially to your cause to the point that some CS Nationals had a star representing the state?  Missouri is as Southern as Texas or Alabama.  Southern, no matter how you want to spin it.  It was, like Kentucky, a state of Southerers, southerners who remained loyal to their country.  Southerners who were willing to put it all on the line for what they believed in.  Southerners who deserve every bit as much honor as any CS soldier.  Now if what you assert is true that Secession was indeed the majority opinion perhaps they should be doubly applauded for doing what they felt was right in the face of such an overwhelming majority... nah, don't buy it.

[BorderRuffian]

Hi Borderruffian,

Civilwartalk is a toxic forum in which a handful of bullies hold sway and are allowed to do so because of spineless moderating.

Civilwartalk looks like just an exchange of insults and smears.

Do the owners and managers of the forum realize that sort of behavior ruins their forum?

[BorderRuffian]

Lets see... the implication that all were forcibaly conscripted.

This has neither been said nor implied.

[Johan Steele]

Lets see... the implication that all were forcibaly conscripted.

This has neither been said nor implied.

Your post 141... looks to me like careful cherry picking of sources to imply exactly that.

[BorderRuffian]

Missouri is as Southern as Texas or Alabama.

About 30% of the Missouri population was born either in foreign countries or the northern United States.

The 30% does not include children born in Missouri to foreign or northern US parentage.

So the population in Missouri with foreign or northern sentiments, ideas, and beliefs may be as high as 40%.

[Johan Steele]

Hi Borderruffian,

Civilwartalk is a toxic forum in which a handful of bullies hold sway and are allowed to do so because of spineless moderating.

Civilwartalk looks like just an exchange of insults and smears.

Do the owners and managers of the forum realize that sort of behavior ruins their forum?

The people who complain are usually the same suspects.  People w/ an agenda.  Does it get heated there on occasion, yes.  The heat gets extinguished when it goes over the line.  The Lost Cause is called what it is by many of the membership over there... and yet the Lost Cause is always present; at CWT, here and elsewhere.

[BorderRuffian]

Your post 141... looks to me like careful cherry picking of sources to imply exactly that.

Post #141 was to show that the USCT were not all volunteers which you have twisted the meaning.

Where in this post does it say all of the USCT were conscripts?-

"all able bodied negroes that can be reached shall be taken to fill up the colored regiments"
"the able-bodied negroes...may be taken possession with or without their own consent"
"All negroes who have not been employed in accordance with published orders may be taken to put in the ranks"

Maj.Gen. U.S. Grant, August 28, 1863


"A major of colored troops is here with his party capturing negroes, with or without their consent."

Maj.Gen. John Logan, February 26, 1864


"Negroes in the employ of Government and those hired by citizens, whether by order of the Treasury Department or otherwise, are exempted from conscription"
[meaning the ones NOT in the employ of the Government were being conscripted]

Maj.Gen. U.S. Grant, February 25, 1864


"All able-bodied colored men between the ages of eighteen and fifty, within the military lines of the Department of the South, who have had an opportunity to enlist voluntarily and refused to do so, shall be drafted into the military service of the United States"

Maj.Gen. J.G. Foster, August 16, 1864


-The post indicates there were both conscripts and volunteers.