Favorite battles or campaigns...POLL

[Henry Moon]

Tom, after reading your most recent post, I have changed my thinking somewhat to agree with you that in my original post I did credit the western Union troops, to the detriment, and at the expense of the eastern troops. Didn't really realize my slight was so blatant and obvious until after reading your post, then re-reading mine. I totally agree with you that the biggest problem the AOP had during its existence was leadership, and that they very well could have done the same fine job out in the west that the western boys did. Plus, their foe was none other than R.E. Lee, from just about the beginning to the very end. No doubt that had a part to play.

So I want to revise, if you will, my original post, to say that I believe the AOP was no less a fighting army than the Union armies out west. There, you made me eat my words bullet boy...enjoy it while you can. Seldom will it happen again! 


Terry

[ole]

Don't eat your words just yet, Terry. The war was won in the west. Not because the western boys were superior to the eastern boys but because of a complex, unexplainable mix of incompetence and impossibilities.

Lincoln couldn't find a general who could manage the eastern theater. Davis couldn't find a general who could manage the western. (The western theater, without denigrating any specific western CSA general, was a hard nut to keep from being cracked.) We can feed off that contention for weeks.

By the time the most successful Western Federal General was sent east to face the most successful Eastern Confederate General, the war in the west was all but finished. The Confederacy had shot its bolt and was backpedalling. Only the chutzpah of the Confederate soldier kept things difficult for another year.

If I had to pick sides, I'd say that Davis lost the west, and Lee kept the east--until he ran out of food and, incidentally, met Grant.

Ole

[Henry Moon]

No, Ole. Tom pointed it out in my post. You know, that happens often, where I type what I think I mean, true to my beliefs, and another of you folks with your intellect and insight point out certain things to me. I'm not being facetious here. Please, believe me. I welcome that feedback, truly, and I'm astounded and humbled often by the depth of insight and thought put into these different subjects by many of you people. That's why I'm on the boards and spend much time here...plus I happen to be unemployed at this moment, but that's a whole other story. This board, Ann's board, has been a life-saver, and a very welcome distraction for me, from what's been going on around this place.

Anyway, not to get too far from my point, Tom's right. I implied that the eastern soldiers of the Federal AOP were not as tough or committed as the western, and I need to correct that. I'm not above having the errors of my ways pointed out to me, and I appreciate it. That is what I meant, and now, I take it back. I do sincerely believe that both East and West Union and Confederate fighting men were on a par at the very least equal to each other. Leadership is a whole other ball of wax, and we all probably know who the weak and strong leaders were on each side. Anyway, that's all I have on this subject. Thanks.

Terry

[leadhead]

Terry,

My comments were not specifically aimed at your post but were more of a reaction to what I see as a developing trend.

Ole,

I have never understood the contention that "The war was won in the west". Care to elaborate?

TomH

[Henry Moon]

Tom, no offense taken. I was messin' with ya.

TW

[Johan Steele]

I have never understood the contention that "The war was won in the west". Care to elaborate?

TomH

I hope Ole doesn't mind my answering for him...  New Orleans, FT Donelson/Henry; Pea Ridge, Iuka/Corinth, Vicksburg, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Savannah.  All strategic victories and w/ the exception of New Orleans & Pea Ridge all accomplished w/ the AoT in the thick of it.

[18th Indiana]

I just wanted to add that the campaign in Middle Tennessee starting June 24th 1863 was and has been very much overlooked.  That campaign prevented Bragg from sending more troops to Vicksburg.  It also took away the "bread basket" of the south.  Bragg put up very little fight as he retreated to Chattanooga.  This campaign is overlooked do to the fact that Gettysburg and Vicksburg fell during this time. 

[Henry Moon]

Good points 18th, and welcome to the board. Hope you stick around a while and post your thoughts. Nobody's an expert here and we're all learning. I've always felt that Franklin was a much neglected battle, along with Spring Hill, and Nashville, mainly for the reasons you listed in your post.  Thanks.


Terry

[leadhead]

Folks,

One thing to add to the east/west debate.

A frequently overlooked factor in the western theater was the equipment issued to the CS troops. The heart of the CS Ordnance department was in the east, under the direct supervision of Gorgas and Mallet. As such, more small arms and ammunition was produced in the eastern arsenals (Richmond, Augusta, Hapers Ferry, Selma, etc.) and, with the woefully inadequate rail system, it was difficult to transport ordnance to the west. In addition there was a "trickle down" effect where newer equipment was issued in the east, and the older stuff was shipped west. This was not a uniquely CS phenominon, but it seemed to have more effect on the CS troops. In the north, trickle down was Regular Army>Volunteer Infantry>Militia>USCT and was less a factor of region than perceivied fighting ability and muster date. In the south the trickle down was ANV>other eastern units>western units>trans-miss units. As Enfield Rifle Muskets and home grown Springfield copies became available the older (shot out in many cases) smaller caliber rm's and larger caliber smoothbores were pushed west.

So, by later in the war, the eastern CS troops armed with Enfields, Converted early model Springfields, captured Federal Springfields, Richmond RM's and a plethora of CS manufactured and captured US carbines met troops armed with Sprinfields and contracts, Spencers, Henrys, Sharps and a whole menu of new improved carbines. In the west, the Federals carried basically the same mix of weapons as the east but the CS carried the cast offs. A western CS ordnance sgt had to carry an incredible assortment of ammunition to meet the needs of the troops. In researching Roundball to Rimfire Vol IV Dean Thomas has recently uncovered information about one weapon in particular, the Tennessee Rifle. It appears that bore diameters were so varied that the bullets for this weapon were ordered "number to the pound" (similar to the Euro "bore" system), with the sgt having to order sizes ranging from 60 to 110 to the pound. When a trooper armed with one of these rifles came to the wagon the sgt would try various sizes until he found one that fit properly (or at least close to properly). The soldier would be sent away with bullets and powder chargers and the instructions to ask for this particular bullet next time he came to the wagon. The same was true for the North Carolina rifle. What a nightmare!

There were arsenals in the west (Arkadelphia, New Orleans, Houston, Marshall TX, etc), but they were limited in the types and number of arms and ammunition produced. A good month at the Dance Brothers in Texas produced 20-25 revolvers, which would be considered a bad hour at Colt. Add to this the fact that the Federal cordon was tightening quickly, causing the relocation of essential equipment and supplies for these arsenals and the production numbers tumble.

So... in addition to having problems finding a western commander the CS troops were fighting with the dregs of the ordnance department. Makes it even more remarkable that they accomplished what they did.

Just a humble opinion,
TomH

[ole]

An excellent, not so humble post, leadhead. Good to have you with us.

ole